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Start/stop don't pass MIDI-Through
#1
Hi Community,

I just purchased a NDLR a few days ago.


My problem is that the master clock start/stop messages from my other sequencer (Toraiz Squid) doesn't go though the NDLR.

The Synths that I trigger with the NDLR don't get the SSC any more. I tried all menu-settings for the clock-out-port, without success.

MIDI-notes are passed through correctly, only SSC messages aren't.

My Squid is connected to MIDI B Input, my synths are connected to MIDI B Output.

The Squid is not using the same channel as the NDLR Cntl channel. (I don't use/need the Cntl channel at all.)

(I haven't tried yet to use the same channel as KB Trans.  - because I don't want the KB to transpose...

As the masterclock comes from my Squid, the NDLR is set to external clock. There IS a clock coming in, the NDLR shows that with the blinking letters on the display.)
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#2
Hi,

I checked this on mine and I can see the clock going thru the NDLR.

My config:
I have a Arturia Beatstep connected to MidiB in and set the clock to external on the NDLR.
I conncted the NDLR via USB to the Computer and used MIDI-OX to monitor the output of the NDLR.
The midi settings in NDLR are adapted that the 4 different parts send to USB1 - the other 4 parameters on the right are default - esp. MIDI Out has "NO PORTS".


As soon as I press start on the Arturia the Time starts ticking and the Drone (in this example) is getting played.
When I press Stop, the note off is sent and the clock stops ticking.

  
The result is the following:
Code:
TIMESTAMP IN PORT STATUS DATA1 DATA2 CHAN NOTE EVENT       
00013376   2  --     F8    --    --   --  ---  Timing Clock     
00013377   2  --     82    30    00    3  C  3 Note Off         
00013377   2  --     92    30    7F    3  C  3 Note On          
000133C6   2  --     F8    --    --   --  ---  Timing Clock     
00013418   2  --     F8    --    --   --  ---  Timing Clock     
0001346B   2  --     F8    --    --   --  ---  Timing Clock     
000134BF   2  --     F8    --    --   --  ---  Timing Clock     
00013513   2  --     F8    --    --   --  ---  Timing Clock     
00013567   2  --     F8    --    --   --  ---  Timing Clock     
000135B9   2  --     F8    --    --   --  ---  Timing Clock     
0001360D   2  --     F8    --    --   --  ---  Timing Clock     
0001365F   2  --     F8    --    --   --  ---  Timing Clock     
000136B4   2  --     F8    --    --   --  ---  Timing Clock     
00013706   2  --     F8    --    --   --  ---  Timing Clock     
0001375A   2  --     F8    --    --   --  ---  Timing Clock     
000137AC   2  --     F8    --    --   --  ---  Timing Clock     
00013801   2  --     F8    --    --   --  ---  Timing Clock     
00013854   2  --     F8    --    --   --  ---  Timing Clock     
000138A7   2  --     F8    --    --   --  ---  Timing Clock     
000138D9   2  --     82    30    00    3  C  3 Note Off         

However you see no Start or Stop Message. I reconfigured then to make it according to midi thru settings of the manual.
Configuration is now: 
Arturia in to Port B, all 4 midi outs to USB2. I also set the MIDI Out to USB2.  There is no change in behaviour other that I now receive the Note-On/Off of a key pressed on the Arturia and the Mi

Code:
TIMESTAMP IN PORT STATUS DATA1 DATA2 CHAN NOTE EVENT              
00001443   4  --     B0    36    7F    1  ---  Control Change
00001445   4  --     F8    --    --   --  ---  Timing Clock
00001445   4  --     F8    --    --   --  ---  Timing Clock         
00001445   4  --     82    30    00    3  C  3 Note Off             
00001445   4  --     92    30    7F    3  C  3 Note On             
00001494   4  --     F8    --    --   --  ---  Timing Clock         
000014B7   4  --     B0    36    00    1  ---  Control Change   
000014E8   4  --     F8    --    --   --  ---  Timing Clock         
0000153B   4  --     F8    --    --   --  ---  Timing Clock         
0000158E   4  --     F8    --    --   --  ---  Timing Clock         
000015E2   4  --     F8    --    --   --  ---  Timing Clock         
00001635   4  --     F8    --    --   --  ---  Timing Clock         
00001688   4  --     F8    --    --   --  ---  Timing Clock         
000016AA   4  --     B0    33    7F    1  ---  Control Change   
000016AB   4  --     82    30    00    3  C  3 Note Off           
000016FE   4  --     B0    33    00    1  ---  Control Change   
000027F2   4  --     90    3C    61    1  C  4 Note On             
00002878   4  --     80    3C    00    1  C  4 Note Off             
000034F0   4  --     90    37    58    1  G  3 Note On             
00003554   4  --     80    37    00    1  G  3 Note Off

Again i can now see the Control Change of the Arturia (which for whatever reason sets and resets the mod wheel every start and stop) and I can also see notes coming thru I play on the keyboard, however still not Start/Stop Message. It looks like its gets filtered.

This is how it should look like if the messages would come thru:
Code:
TIMESTAMP IN PORT STATUS DATA1 DATA2 CHAN NOTE EVENT         
00010464   1  --     FA    --    --   --  ---  Start              
00010468   4  --     B0    36    7F    1  ---  Control Change  
0001046A   4  --     F8    --    --   --  ---  Timing Clock    
0001046A   4  --     82    30    00    3  C  3 Note Off        
0001046A   4  --     92    30    7F    3  C  3 Note On       
000104B9   4  --     F8    --    --   --  ---  Timing Clock    
000104F5   4  --     B0    36    00    1  ---  Control Change  
0001050D   4  --     F8    --    --   --  ---  Timing Clock    
00010550   1  --     FC    --    --   --  ---  Stop            
00010555   4  --     B0    33    7F    1  ---  Control Change  
00010556   4  --     82    30    00    3  C  3 Note Off         
000105AD   4  --     B0    33    00    1  ---  Control Change



Please remark that the Start and Stop messages came in to Midi-OX directly via the USB Midi channel of the Keystep and not thru the NDLR. You can identify that by looking at the midi Channel. 

What I also do not understand, why it is sending out the clock at channel 4 (also all other events from the NDLR) as I am only using the drone for this example (hence the single note on command) and would have expected channel 3

So - I would consider that a bug.
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#3
Thank you for testing this SerErris. The NDLR does not pass SSC messages. Originally, NDLR did not consume them either, we added support for using SSC messages based on customer request. Lots of Deluge owners defined how it works now. We had to go back and look at the code to remind is how we decided it should be this way.

We believe the majority of NDLRs are not passing their sequencer data through the NDLR. In fact, we had a few requests to turn off passing clock so that a sequencer providing clock, parallel to The NDLR would provide clock to devices via a MIDI router or splitter. The NDLR would get clock from the splitter. The setting for turning off the clock pass through is in the NDLR boot menu, accessible by holding the Shift and Menu button while powering on The NDLR.

We also didn't want SSC messages passing through for our own sanity, because it can cause inadvertent starts and stop to external gear when you might not want it to.

So we haven't had other requests for this that I can recall, and its not something we would just turn on because it could cause issues with current users setups. However, if there is demand for passing SSC, we could add an option in the boot menu to pass it, but our recommendation is to not pass all of your sequencers data through The NDLR, it will add latency and potentially cause jitter within The NDLR.
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#4
(01-08-2020, 07:45 AM)SerErris Wrote: What I also do not understand, why it is sending out the clock at channel 4 (also all other events from the NDLR) as I am only using the drone for this example (hence the single note on command) and would have expected channel 3
Clock and Start/Stop/Continue message are global (System Real-Time) messages and not associated with a channel. You will have to ask the MIDI-Ox people why there's a channel on there.  It probably just shows the channel from the prior message because they don't clear it between messages. Despite its flaws, MIDI-Ox has been an indispensable tool for us.  Big Grin
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#5
(01-08-2020, 05:49 PM)Darryl Wrote:
(01-08-2020, 07:45 AM)SerErris Wrote: What I also do not understand, why it is sending out the clock at channel 4 (also all other events from the NDLR) as I am only using the drone for this example (hence the single note on command) and would have expected channel 3
Clock and Start/Stop/Continue message are global (System Real-Time) messages and not associated with a channel. You will have to ask the MIDI-Ox people why there's a channel on there.  It probably just shows the channel from the prior message because they don't clear it between messages. Despite its flaws, MIDI-Ox has been an indispensable tool for us.  Big Grin

I think there's a little confusion here. The second column, IN, is actually a number indicating which MIDI device the message came from. So, for the above, the clock messages are coming from device 4, one of the NDLR MIDI USB devices. There's a separate column, CHAN, that shows the MIDI channel for the message if there is one.

I agree that MIDI-OX is indispensable. Smile
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#6
(01-09-2020, 01:06 AM)drGrov Wrote:
(01-08-2020, 05:49 PM)Darryl Wrote:
(01-08-2020, 07:45 AM)SerErris Wrote: What I also do not understand, why it is sending out the clock at channel 4 (also all other events from the NDLR) as I am only using the drone for this example (hence the single note on command) and would have expected channel 3
Clock and Start/Stop/Continue message are global (System Real-Time) messages and not associated with a channel. You will have to ask the MIDI-Ox people why there's a channel on there.  It probably just shows the channel from the prior message because they don't clear it between messages. Despite its flaws, MIDI-Ox has been an indispensable tool for us.  Big Grin

I think there's a little confusion here. The second column, IN, is actually a number indicating which MIDI device the message came from. So, for the above, the clock messages are coming from device 4, one of the NDLR MIDI USB devices. There's a separate column, CHAN, that shows the MIDI channel for the message if there is one.

I agree that MIDI-OX is indispensable. Smile
Ah yes, thanks for clarifying that.
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#7
(01-08-2020, 05:39 PM)Darryl Wrote: Thank you for testing this SerErris. The NDLR does not pass SSC messages. Originally, NDLR did not consume them either, we added support for using SSC messages based on customer request. Lots of Deluge owners defined how it works now. We had to go back and look at the code to remind is how we decided it should be this way.

We believe the majority of NDLRs are not passing their sequencer data through the NDLR. In fact, we had a few requests to turn off passing clock so that a sequencer providing clock, parallel to The NDLR would provide clock to devices via a MIDI router or splitter. The NDLR would get clock from the splitter. The setting for turning off the clock pass through is in the NDLR boot menu, accessible by holding the Shift and Menu button while powering on The NDLR.

We also didn't want SSC messages passing through for our own sanity, because it can cause inadvertent starts and stop to external gear when you might not want it to.

So we haven't had other requests for this that I can recall, and its not something we would just turn on because it could cause issues with current users setups. However, if there is demand for passing SSC, we could add an option in the boot menu to pass it, but our recommendation is to not pass all of your sequencers data through The NDLR, it will add latency and potentially cause jitter within The NDLR.

Hmm.. sounds complicated. I believe as this is a utility it should offer as much flexibility as possible. So configurable options (maybe page 4 on settings) for that and how it behaves would be optimal. 

I believe there is no right, just how certain indivudals setup their gear and how they actually use it. 

On the other hand I try to figure out why you actually would need the start stop signals to be passed. Cause the synthesizers connected to the NDLR are actually playing what NDLR is handing them over. So there is nothing to start or stop on there. 

Anyhow the issue arrieses when there is no Midi Switch and Merger in the setup (as in mine). Every Midi Device only comes with one Midi In and I can either connect the clock with start stop to it or the NDLR, but not both. So a Midi merger/switch is absolute key in such a setup.
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#8
I got my NDLR a couple of weeks ago and I'm currently trying to integrate it fully into my setup.

For me it's essential that it passes through the Clock and Control which it receives from my sequencer (Deluge). In my case the NDLR controls voices on the MC101 (+other synths) which is a groovebox and also has drum tracks. Was also having the clock and control forwarded to my Octatrack. None of this works if start and stop isn't forwarded.


I considered having the NDLR as my master clock and controlling start and stop. But that won't work as it sends a stop command if i disable all four voices.

I understand how this is not an issue for users who only trigger their synths from the NDLR, but there are other machines around which rely on these commands to get through.


In case I'm missing something, here is what I was hoping to do:
Deluge (clock/start/stop) -> NDLR
-->OutA (clock/start/stop/notes) -> MC101 -> Octatrack
-->OutB (notes) ->Deluge (Midi Thru off)
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#9
(01-19-2020, 04:02 PM)DanS Wrote: I got my NDLR a couple of weeks ago and I'm currently trying to integrate it fully into my setup.

For me it's essential that it passes through the Clock and Control which it receives from my sequencer (Deluge). In my case the NDLR controls voices on the MC101 (+other synths) which is a groovebox and also has drum tracks. Was also having the clock and control forwarded to my Octatrack. None of this works if start and stop isn't forwarded.


I considered having the NDLR as my master clock and controlling start and stop. But that won't work as it sends a stop command if i disable all four voices.

I understand how this is not an issue for users who only trigger their synths from the NDLR, but there are other machines around which rely on these commands to get through.


In case I'm missing something, here is what I was hoping to do:
Deluge (clock/start/stop) -> NDLR
-->OutA (clock/start/stop/notes) -> MC101 -> Octatrack
-->OutB (notes) ->Deluge (Midi Thru off)
Hey Dan, first off welcome to gang, glad to have you. As for possible solutions, have you looked into the MRCC by any chance? It sounds like what you are describing would fall under a perfect use case. It could also be done either on a computer with midiox, or a similar utility, and I've been able to do similar setups using my Ipad (along with a griffin studioconnect dock) and some of the many midi controlling utilities available in that ecosystem. Hopefully one of those solutions gets you there, but I'll take note of the feature request and see if it's something that could be included down the road.
Thanks,
Jesse
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#10
Hey Jesse,

thanks for your reply. I've managed to get a working setup running somehow using my own teensy-midi box. From programming that one I remember that passing through Midi Start/Stop and Clock with Arduino/Teensy was extremely simple. That's why I'm surprised that it's not a simple setting on the NDLR. Also as all other machines I know do that by default.
Bit much to ask customers to invest another $100+ on a midi interpreter or switch their computers/ipads back on when trying to be hardware only - just to get their start/stop merged back in.

Not trying to being confrontational, just struggling to understand the thought process on this one. Especially as apart from that issue I really like the machine.
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