Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Wrong sus4 Chord Notes and Chord Display in Eb
#1
Hi all,

I'm jamming ndling around within the scale of Eb minor and noticed that the VI chord is displayed as C, but it should be B. (C is the VI. interval for Eb Major) It's sending out the correct notes for a triad chord, though.

But when changing the chord mode to sus4 the notes B F and F# are sent, but it should be B E and F#. 

I haven't checked it in every key and mode but the wrong notes for the sus4 chord are sent in other scales and modes as well and it's somehow connected to the Intervals and not to the chords itself. 

For example: F#sus4 VII in G Major scale is sending a wrong note (C instead of C#), but F#sus4 I in F# is sending the correct notes.

I used http://www.looknohands.com/chordhouse/piano/ for looking up the chords and using Firmware v1.0.6.3

Cheers Triscus
Reply
#2
Thanks for the report, we'll take a look.
Reply
#3
(12-13-2019, 05:21 AM)triscus Wrote: Hi all,

I'm jamming ndling around within the scale of Eb minor and noticed that the VI chord is displayed as C, but it should be B. (C is the VI. interval for Eb Major) It's sending out the correct notes for a triad chord, though.

But when changing the chord mode to sus4 the notes B F and F# are sent, but it should be B E and F#. 

I haven't checked it in every key and mode but the wrong notes for the sus4 chord are sent in other scales and modes as well and it's somehow connected to the Intervals and not to the chords itself. 

For example: F#sus4 VII in G Major scale is sending a wrong note (C instead of C#), but F#sus4 I in F# is sending the correct notes.

I used http://www.looknohands.com/chordhouse/piano/ for looking up the chords and using Firmware v1.0.6.3

Cheers Triscus

In the "Always trying to make things better" category...
Triscus mentioned that the sus2 and sus4 chords, when played on certain chord degrees, sound wrong (or even are wrong) from an interval point of view.  Given I wrote this code ~2 years ago I decided to take a look.

Here are the defined chromatic note values for a sus2 = 0-2-7 and for sus4 = 0-5-7.  The triads = 0-4-7 middle note (4) is shifted to the 2 or 5, which make the chord suspended and offers tension.  However if you hold these intervals constant and play these chords starting from each chord degree I, II, III... IIV, then the notes will not be in key.  III & VII for sus2 and IV & VII for sus4.

This is how it has always worked in the NDLR...
I made the choice to keep all the chord notes in KEY, which occasionally forces there to be a minor 2nd interval in the sus chords. That sounds a little dissonant and really doesn't serve the purpose of the sus's tension.

I decided to make an experimental NDLR FW build .063exp where I don't correct for the out of KEY notes in the sus chords in degree III, IV & VII.

If there are any wicked smart music theory folks out there, which I know there are, LMK what is "more" correct.
For everyone LMK what you think sounds better when noodling!

Steve

Code:
       experiment    original
Chord   sus  sus     sus  sus
Degree   2    4       2    4
-------------------------------
   I    027  057     027  057
  II    027  057     027  057
 III    027  057     017* 057
  IV    027  057     027  067* 
   V    027  057     027  057
  VI    027  057     027  057
 VII    027  057     016* 056*

* = changed
Reply
#4
I've tried out the experimental firmware tonight in the context of working on the backbone of a piece I'm putting together where the pads would benefit from a bit of "sus" - had the NDLR powered from a laptop with Teensy Loader so I could quickly switch between the two firmware versions.

For this piece, the old (theoretically wrong) method is ideal, because I can exploit the dissonance that can occur by changing key & mode - my piece is actually in D Dorian, but if I set the NDLR to C Lydian and Pad to sus4 I get a dissonant chord on the C and the bonus of Drone also being low, which is what this piece needs. However, the desire for true suspended chords is also valid.

Steve - Any chance the key-respecting/theory-respecting methods for sus chords could be switchable? Encoder 8 in Settings 3 might be a good place, as its current role of displaying serial number or firmware version makes it seem a bit wasted, given that those are displayed on boot anyway.

There's no such thing as a wrong chord - you just have to play it more than once. Wink
Reply
#5
Thanks for the great feedback. We would like to make this switchable too, maybe adding it to the “invert” option. BTW you might try the invert option for your piece.
Steve
Reply
#6
Just noticed the dissonances and was curious about it so I checked the MIDI and thought about it as a bug.

AFAIK (I'm wicked and sometimes smart, but not a wicked smart music theoretician Smile ) chords are defined by it's root and the intervals of the notes and not by the scale they played in.

According to a chord finder, the 017 chord can be called sus(b2) and 067 sus(#4), but it seems they doesn't exists as a 'real' chord. (in western music?)

The reason for me of getting a NDLR was to have access to the (theoretically) correct chords in an easy way and I would think it's the intended use for the NDLR, but I also understand that (musically) there is no wrong chord.

So a switchable option or similar would be nice to have. Maybe it could be even possible to create custom chord qualities via the alt1 and alt2 options? This way everyone could dial in the chord qualities they want.

Cheers Triscus

(12-15-2019, 08:37 AM)Steve Wrote: Thanks for the great feedback.  We would like to make this switchable too, maybe adding it to the “invert” option.  BTW you might try the invert option for your piece.
Steve
I wrote my reply while you were posting. Thank you for your effort.
Reply
#7
Our goal with the NDLR is to make it easy to play music, where there is some disonance for tension but for the most part it keeps the notes in key. I noticed that quite often there are accidentals in songs so maybe this is a good exception to the strict “notes in key” rule.
Steve
We also think this should be a choice in the menu and think we found a place. Likely to be combined in the Invert on/off option.
Steve
Reply
#8
Awesome - looking forward to it!
Reply
#9
(12-15-2019, 09:16 AM)Steve Wrote: Our goal with the NDLR is to make it easy to play music, where there is some disonance for tension but for the most part it keeps the notes in key. I noticed that quite often there are accidentals in songs so maybe this is a good exception to the strict “notes in key” rule.
Steve
We also think this should be a choice in the menu and think we found a place.  Likely to be combined in the Invert on/off option.
Steve
In relation to this discussion, Rick Beato, and others, include additional triads in their vocabulary. These are basically sus chords built on scale degrees that don't comply with the standard 4 triad types. 1 #4 5 (Lydian Triad) 1 b2 5 (Phrygian Triad), and 1 b2 b5 (Locrian Triad) There's also the Major b5 Triad (1 3 b5). Diatonicaly speaking, any 3 notes are at least part of SOME chord within the scale.

I'm just finding out about the NDLR, and I'm really wanting to purchase one. I haven't quite figured out how the chord and scale relationships would work with the device when you use the harmonic minor, for example. Do the 7 chords then become diatonic to that scale, which would include an Augmented triad? Are there plans to include the Melodic minor and other scales in the future?
Cheers!
Reply
#10
We don't currently have plans to add more scales, but it could be done. Besides Melodic Minor, are there others that would be a priority?
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)