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NDLR start stop messages
#1
Hi everyone.

My NDLR has recently landed and I’m trying things out on a couple of synths before attempting to integrate it into my full set up.
I’ve hooked it up to my Digitone through 5 pin Midi, with its tracks 1-4 being allocated to Drone, Motifs 1&2 and Pad on the NDLR.
When I press any of the NDLR parts, that respective track on the Digitone plays.
When the Play All button is pressed, all 4 tracks play. Perfect.

I have a Digitakt also connected, receiving the same midi signal from NDLR.
This also starts when Play All is pressed. Perfect.

What I don’t want, is the Digitakt starting when the Pad or Drone part is started on the NDLR.
For some reason, pressing Pad and / or Drone starts the Digitakt, when the Motif parts do not.

I’m sure it’s a settings thing-can anyone advise please?

Many thanks, Lozza.
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#2
System menu 1, bottom right corner is where you can change SSC message behavior. You can turn it off. Not sure why its happening with just PAD or Drone, I'll have to read the manual  Cool
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#3
(11-12-2019, 08:33 PM)Darryl Wrote: System menu 1, bottom right corner is where you can change SSC message behavior. You can turn it off. Not sure why its happening with just PAD or Drone, I'll have to read the manual  Cool

Thanks for your reply Darryl. Yes, I've been over that part of the manual and played around with that settings menu 1, bottom right parameter.

My Midi Thru box is connected to the Midi out 'A' on the NDLR. My Digitone and Digitakt into the outs on the Thru box. Both synths are set to receive clock.

When menu 1 setting is set to 'Midi A', pressing 'Play All' triggers both synths.  This is what I expected.

Pressing 'Pad' or 'Drone' on this setting does the same. This is what I didn't expect!

If I set the menu 1 setting to 'All Ports', exactly the same behavior is seen.

If I set the menu 1 setting to 'No Ports', pressing 'Play All' triggers just the Digitone  (its pad, drone, motif 1 & motif 2), but no Digitakt.

I just want to be able to hit 'Play All' and everything connected plays, whilst being able to hit 'Pad' or 'drone', and just those respective parts play. It all seems very odd that it doesn't work this way.
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#4
I believe the intention was that starting any part would send a start, but we'll have to go back and look to see why it's inconsistent. Also, there's nothing in the manual about it, so we'll fix that too. Typically the manual is the "spec" for how things are implemented. Steve will write the manual section before completing a feature as a way to ensure it all makes sense.
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#5
(11-14-2019, 02:57 PM)Darryl Wrote: I believe the intention was that starting any part would send a start, but we'll have to go back and look to see why it's inconsistent. Also, there's nothing in the manual about it, so we'll fix that too. Typically the manual is the "spec" for how things are implemented. Steve will write the manual section before completing a feature as a way to ensure it all makes sense.

Hi All,
I can confirm that the Stop/Start (S/S) messages sent when turning Parts on/off are not the same for all four parts. 
And I think they should be, I will ponder this over the weekend (see below), and fix it early next week. We NEED YOUR FEEDBACK!
 
To turn the S/S MIDI messages on/off use menu System Settings 1 - lower right box is "MIDI Out Start/Stop".
The choices are: All Ports - No Ports - USB A - USB B - USB C - USB D - MIDI A - MIDI B, default = No Ports
If enabled for any port(s), the Table below shows the "S/S" MIDI messages when the 4 parts are toggled.  I added a couple proposed changes, 1 & 2. What are your thoughts on these?
Thanks,
Steve

^ (if first part playing)
* (if last part playing)
 
Current:
Motif 1 - On -> No msg,        Off -> "STOP" msg*
Motif 2 - On -> No msg,        Off -> "STOP" msg*
PAD     - On -> "START" msg^,  Off -> "STOP" msg*
DRONE   - On -> "START" msg^,  Off -> "STOP" msg*
ALL     - On -> "START" msg,   Off -> "STOP" msg
 
Proposal 1:
Motif 1 - On -> "START" msg^,  Off -> "STOP" msg*
Motif 2 - On -> "START" msg^,  Off -> "STOP" msg*
PAD     - On -> "START" msg^,  Off -> "STOP" msg*
DRONE   - On -> "START" msg^,  Off -> "STOP" msg*
ALL     - On -> "START" msg,   Off -> "STOP" msg
 
Proposal 2:
Motif 1 - On -> No msg,       Off -> No msg
Motif 2 - On -> No msg,       Off -> No msg
PAD     - On -> No msg,       Off -> No msg
DRONE   - On -> No msg,       Off -> No msg
ALL     - On -> "START" msg,  Off -> "STOP" msg
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#6
My vote is for proposal 1. I think the NDLR should send a START message the first time something starts, be it a single part or everything, and a STOP when the last thing stops. I don't always kick things off by starting all the parts together, maybe just a pad + drone or single motif so having START/STOP messages in these cases is desirable.

I hadn't realised you could confine the START/STOP messages to a single port. That opens up interesting possibilities...
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#7
I've been watching this thread since it started. But, since I'm STILL WAITING (patiently) for my NDLR, I couldn't contribute anything experiential. Now Steve asks for opinions on how something should work, and I'm full of that (opinions, that is).

In my opinion, Proposal 1 is the way to go - WITH A MINOR MODIFICATION. As currently proposed, a Start is issued at the first instance of any individual part and not sent for subsequent individual part starts. BUT, All sends a Start regardless of previous part starts. This means the following scenario would happen:

Start a song by pressing Motif 1 -> Start is issued (so far so good)
Add a bass line by pressing Drone -> no Start sent (makes sense to me)
Bring in Pad and Motif 2 simultaneously by pressing All -> a second Start is issued (I belive this will reset other sequencers to their beginning - possibly midstream)

Again, I don't actually have a NDLR in hand, and perhaps this is an improper use model. But it just seemed to me all conditions of starting (individual parts or All) should only send a Start if they are the first to do so.
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#8
Hi, and thanks everyone for chiming in on this discussion. I'm glad it's not me going mad by myself!

I agree also, I think the approach should be uniform, either it is set up so that the 4 parts all kick off a Start message, or all 4 parts don't kick off a start message, but not as it is at present, a half way house.

Proposal 1 would be ok, at least we would all know what to expect and be able to have certain connected synths muted if required.

Can there be a way to have a setting so that Motif 1 and Motif 2 will be synced when started separately, other than by an 'All' start?

It would be nice to be able to have one Motif playing, start the other Motif later on, but only have it 'come in' at the beginning of that pattern, so that they both remain in sync, as if you had originally started 'All'. This would be most beneficial.

Cheers, Lozza
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#9
Hi guys,
Thanks so much for the comments. I also wanted to suggest that having everything started the same time and controlling what’s being heard with the mixer is another option that I wanted to remind folks about.

Either way it looks like option one is what seems to make the most logical sense. I need to double check on what sequence of events causes the sync-ing of the motifs.

Stay tuned
Steve
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#10
(11-18-2019, 09:29 AM)Steve Wrote: I also wanted to suggest that having everything started the same time and controlling what’s being heard with the mixer is another option that I wanted to remind folks about.

Funny, I'd never thought of that. I had a feature request all lined up where I'd ask if we could have the option to have the part buttons act like MIDI mutes rather than pausing the part. That way I could bring individual parts in and out and keep them in sync with one another. Now you've spoiled my fun.

Seriously though I think there are circumstances where having the NDLR in charge of the parts being heard makes sense e.g. live performance. The part buttons on the NDLR are also much easier to automate from MIDI than a lot of mixers Smile.
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