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Midi sync start/stop on pattern first step
#1
Hello Conductive Labs, 

Got the NDLR today and love it, thank you for the fantastic work!

However, how do you start sequences from Step 1? It seems that "play" will always "continue" from where you previously paused. When using in sync with a DAW, your nice sequences will be messed up as soon as you stop and restart because then, your DAW will restart from step 1, but not the NDLR. 

Reproduce with internal sync: make a simple motif to identify first step (length 8, div 1/2, all steps value 0, except first step value 10). Play/Pause a few times and you'll hear it never starts on the same step. I expected it to always start on step 1. (or have an option to do so)

Reproduce with DAW sync: Use that same simple motif to identify first step. Sync with a DAW and put the DAW metronome. I expected step1 to play on metronome first beat, but thats not always the case. (unless you're lucky and pause on last step i guess)


Am i missing something?
Thanks for your help
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#2
Hello, indeed Play/Pause does pause the motifs and starts them where they stopped. This was a change we made pretty late in the development of The NDLR (due to requests). Some people want to pause them but agree this probably isn't going to work for everyone.

We had considered making the All button stop/restart all motifs. Would that help?

There may be a workaround, if you use an Arturia KeyStep or Beatstep transport controls, it will pause and play with the pause/play button, but if you press the Stop button The NDLR will restart the motifs when you press Play. You may get similar behavior with other devices but we have done most testing with those Arturia devices.
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#3
>> We had considered making the All button stop/restart all motifs. Would that help?
Yes, that would help when playing the NDLR as master clock. Since we have 1 button, maybe a customizable option would be even more flexible for all users (e.g. "play restarts from step 1: on/off")

As for MIDI slave, this is the expected behavior i guess:
- "stop" message received: stop playing but remembers current position (in case next message is "continue")
- "continue" message received: resume playing from current position
- "start" message received: restart playing from step 1

https://www.midi.org/specifications-old/...di-message
http://www.lim.di.unimi.it/IEEE/MIDI/SOT3.HTM#Start

Thanks for your help
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#4
Chab, check out the new forum section, The NDLR Open Beta Firmware. Steve implemented a change to the Start All button so it restarts the motif patterns when toggled to play. If you don't mind helping to test a beta, you can try the new functionality before its official release.
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#5
Thanks for the feedback! 
I’ll verify the behavior for the inbound MIDI messages for Start, Stop, Continue.  

1) Can you tell me which device is the master MIDI clock?
2) Also can lmk if the DAW stops sending MIDI clock messages when “stop” or “pause” is sent?

The Arturia devices stop sending clock messages when “stop”/“pause” is sent. Seems intuitive at first but really can mess up sync’d FX, internally sequenced modulations (ie DSI Evolver) and LFOs etc...

Thanks,
Steve
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#6
@Darryl, thanks but the "The NDLR Beta" requires a password. Feel free to mail it to me if you want me to test it.

@Steve, I'm using Ableton Live and it does not send clock messages when stopped. I sometimes use a Cirklon sequencer and this one sends clock messages even when stopped.

Here are 2 screenshots showing sync messages from Live and Logic. Both don't send clock messages when stopped.
   
   
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#7
(01-14-2019, 11:31 AM)Chab Wrote: @Darryl, thanks but the "The NDLR Beta" requires a password. Feel free to mail it to me if you want me to test it.

@Steve, I'm using Ableton Live and it does not send clock messages when stopped. I sometimes use a Cirklon sequencer and this one sends clock messages even when stopped.

Here are 2 screenshots showing sync messages from Live and Logic. Both don't send clock messages when stopped.

We have an open beta forum: The NDLR Open Beta Firmware, but you do need to have an account on the forums.

Thanks for the Ableton Live info!  I got a bit behind fixing bugs and what not.  I'll have a look hopefully tomorrow into the "expected behavior" vs. our current implementation.

Thanks again for taking the time to help us make The NDLR the best it can be! :-)
Steve
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#8
About beta v1.1.011 "3) When “Play All” is toggled to “Play” the 2 motifs are restarted at the first note in their Motif Patterns. ":

Works great, thanks! Just one detail left as far as i'm concerned: In sync slave mode, the NDLR should start playing when receiving a start message from the external master clock. (I can achieve this now by "arming" play on the NDLR, and then starting the external master clock... but that should be automatic).

Thanks for the constant support.
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#9
(01-15-2019, 03:49 AM)Chab Wrote: About beta v1.1.011 "3) When “Play All” is toggled to “Play” the 2 motifs are restarted at the first note in their Motif Patterns. ":

Works great, thanks! Just one detail left as far as i'm concerned: In sync slave mode, the NDLR should start playing when receiving a start message from the external master clock. (I can achieve this now by "arming" play on the NDLR, and then starting the external master clock... but that should be automatic).

Thanks for the constant support.

The arming feature seemed to be the best way to prevent chaos when start messages start flying around. Otherwise, would we "start all" every time? For us that was not an option due to our own experiences with having multiple MIDI controllers with their own transport controls, maybe a DAW is in the mix, and any one of them can send a Start message. 
For a synth with a single sequencer, it makes sense to start that sequencer, but with the 4 parts of The NDLR it can be a problem. Arming parts seemed to be the best approach for a controlled environment and its not uncommon on multi-part devices. The only challenge is remembering to arm it.
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#10
Hi Darryl,

I see your point, but I can't really agree. There are MIDI specifications about Real Time Messages and those should be the default behavior (start msg = arm play, first clock = start playing). Different behaviors should be opt-out user preferences.  Obviously arming the NDLR before playing the master is not a big deal and i'm already used to it, but following the midi specs seems like a better idea.

(If Roland had interpreted the specs like this in the 80s, i would get cramps by arming boxes before i can even start the master clock!  Smile )
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