Transpose midi input question

[paulshillito]

BI don’t know if I’m missing something or not but if anyone can help me out here i’d Be grateful.

I’m trying to use an external midi keyboard to transpose the patterns / pad / drone. I’ve connected my keystep via 5 pin midi A and set the trans input in the settings to the correct midi channel but I cannot get the nldr respond to the keystep output. The output is working and on the correct channel as it works if I set it to the control input and use the same midi channel To control the chord and black as expected.
My question is, does the trans input do what I assume it does and transpose the patterns from the keyboard and if so then what am I doing wrong?

[Darryl]

BI don’t know if I’m missing something or not but if anyone can help me out here i’d Be grateful.

I’m trying to use an external midi keyboard to transpose the patterns / pad / drone. I’ve connected my keystep via 5 pin midi A and set the trans input in the settings to the correct midi channel but I cannot get the nldr respond to the keystep output. The output is working and on the correct channel as it works if I set it to the control input and use the same midi channel To control the chord and black as expected.
My question is, does the trans input do what I assume it does and transpose the patterns from the keyboard and if so then what am I doing wrong?

The MIDI transpose input from your Keystep will output to the transpose channel on the NDLR. So if your Keystep is set for MIDI channel 5, and transpose channel is 5, then the synth connected to the NDLR midi out needs to be on channel 5 to receive the transposed notes.

[paulshillito]

I’m not sure we are talking about the same thing. If I setup the keystep on in A channel 7, the transpose is on 7, and the synth on out A channel 7 then I get the output from the keystep shifted to the key of the nldr alongside the nldr output. What I assumed it would do is like every other sequencer I have which is to transpose the nldr output to the key pressed on the keystep or other midi device whilst keeping it in the key and mode settings of the nldr. The key scaling of the input is a useful feature as it saves using a keyboard with a scale function and keeps things tied together  but if that is correct it’s missing a very common sequencer feature of changing the sequence key with a midi input, is that correct?

[Darryl]

Sorry if I am being dense, but I think I'm not getting it. The NDLR is not a sequencer, you don't actually get to pick specific notes to play (unless you make a pattern in chromatic mode and don't change the key). What you are doing is creating a note pool based on the chord degree, type, key and mode. All four parts are using this note pool which is how it stays in key.

So you press a key on the keyboard, The NDLR does not change key or mode, so what does The NDLR do with the incoming note? There are four parts, is that note affecting all parts or just the motifs/arps?
If you press Shift ->encoder 5 (top right) for the pattern editor, you can change the pattern as the arp plays. If we were to do something with that incoming MIDI note, you can imagine it would be doing something to the pattern on this screen. Maybe moving all of the pattern values up or down by 1? The Motif Position knob can do that, there is also a CC control for it, but maybe it would be handy to do it with the keyboard?

Food for thought... For the most part, all of the notes coming out of The NDLR are based on The NDLR key/mode and the selected chord/type. What notes are playing from the note pool can be manipulated with an arp pattern, note octave position, key, mode, etc. However, The NDLR arps are not traditional arps that play the keys you press on a keyboard. The primary goal is to keep all parts in key. The arp's patterns are playing notes from the pool, the same with the MIDI input transposition.

[paulshillito]

No Darryl, you not being dense but i think I need to clarify where I’m coming from.
I know you say that the NDLR is not a sequencer but the motif section is as close as you might come to one but with greater flexibility which is why I referred to it as a sequencer. I’ve spent a lot of time searching for something that could keep several different parts in a selected key/mode. It was only really using Ableton and more recently keyboards like the NI Komplete and the Novation SL3 (which I now have) that can apply a scale/mode function to my bad keyboard skills. So the NDLR is a bit of a revelation with sequenced motifs and scaled pad/drone all tied together, my hats off to you for that.

I got the NDLR a few days back and I managed to get some time to play with it yesterday. As I was going through the settings, I saw the “KB Trans” and on a quick check in the manual I read it as transposing the NDLR with an external midi signal. This, I now know is not how it works but coming from a background of hardware and software sequencers that’s how I had in my mind at the time and that’s why I asked the original question in the forum.
Shortly after I concluded and that was confirmed with your first answer that it actually meant transposing the external keyboards output through the NDLR to keep any external noodling in key which is great. The position control can move the motifs around and the keys on the NDLR can move it around an octave, but I still think it’s missing something so what this is now is really a feature request and a slight rewrite to the manual.

So feature request first : Keep the “KB Trans” as it is but add an extra option to take a midi input from a  different input and use that new input to  change the root note of the motifs up or down in semitones, basically like a traditional transpose does on a normal sequencer but whist still keeping the motif in the key and mode selected on the NDLR.
This way you can still have the noodling ability as it is now and transpose the motifs on a second keyboard or from a sequencer for example.
This would allow you to quickly and easily move the motifs beyond the 1 octave limit of the NLDR panel keys or the current midi keyboard control and without having to use the position control which is not that easy to get a quick and accurate transposition compared to just hitting a key on a keyboard and without having to set up CC’s.
There would be no need for this input to change the Pad or drone as they are better controlled by the panel keys and it would add an extra layer of complication and change things that you would probably want to keep as a steadier background.

As for the manual I think it needs a bit of clarification as to what the existing “KB Trans” does. I’m sure that I’m not the only one that misread what it does because this kind of scalar transposition is a feature that I have not seen in any other device. The only thing I know which comes close is the 512 touch keyboard from Future Retro which I also have and that can transmutate an incoming midi signal to a scale/mode and transpose it.
So something along the lines of the following would make it much clearer as to the “KB Trans” function
“The KB trans takes an external midi signal and scalar transposes it so that it is in the key/mode with the output of the NDLR. This effectively allows you to “noodle” on an external keyboard adding extra notes to the NDLR output whist keeping them in key with the NDLR. It does not transpose the output of the NDLR to the incoming midi signal as a normal sequencer your used to might”.

Sorry for the rather long post but I needed to add the extra details so you could see where is was coming from and I think a lot of potential new owners might be as well and might jump to the wrong conclusions as I did ?.

[Darryl]

This is a great explanation of what you are expecting! We talked about this a bit today, trying to imagine how we can map a keyboard to "octave position". One idea is to make a modulation source of "notes". However, we'll have to look at how this would scale across all of the various destinations. It might be the case where when "notes" is the source, it would use notes coming in on the control channel, and the control channel would no longer change chords (or maybe make it an option). This way, you can assign the "notes" source to any part or parameter.

As mentioned, the motifs are playing notes from the note pool, so notes pressed on the keyboard would not mean anything to The NDLR. We would essentially have to use the keyboard notes as an external position control. Since we can't know the number of keys on your keyboard, we would have to optimize for maybe middle C, and work outwards.

You could simulate what this would sound like by creating a modulation with a source of "pattern", and destination of motif position. This would cause the position to change to specific octave locations. I haven't tried this yet, but I think it would demonstrate the effect. You could also try it with pitch bend as a source.

Also, good advice on the manual. We'll see about clearing it up for the next revision.

[ranzee]

Hey guys,

Actually that would be something I'd use too. If you check the interactive chord mode on the JD-XI it does this: takes a locally played chord, changes the root note of the sequence based on that chord. It isn't perfect - but there are algorithms out there already that can read chords and chose the root note. So i'm gathering all it needs is a TRNS - KBD-IN feature with root note modifying the MOTIF.

I have ideas of using the MPC Live MIDI sequencer, sending it a chord (say via channel 16) - to transpose the NDLR, take the clock and basically that would be a major partnership.

At this stage all I can do is send it a chord and it will transpose that through to the output MIDI channel (which is also a neat feature).

[Darryl]

You guys should checkout the latest beta release, 1.1.024. It should improve the experience for keyboard players looking to select PAD/chords by root note rather than "key of C white keys". Ranzee, this might work a lot better for that JD-XI chord mode you showed in your video.

See the specifics on the Open Beta forum.

[paulshillito]

Hi Darryl,

Trying the new 1.1.024 firmware and it works OK for me, not quite a true transpose over to whole keyboard but I understand why you did it this way and it works across all the modes which is better that the method i suggested :-)

Do you have an ETA for the chord sequencer and midi control update?

Paul

[Cyberluke]

Yes, this is great. We need some more of the typical midi stuff found in every second arpeggiator (Reason Matrix Sequencer, Ableton Max4Live devices, couple of iOS apps like PolyArpStepSequencer). So I would say stuff like this is a regular basic feature, not only for live performance, but for noodling around.