Start/Stop Issues

[Alan]

I have encountered some issues which make the NDLR suboptimal for live use. Sometimes my live use case involves Chord Sequencing, and sometimes it involves controlling the chords from my Roland bass pedals.  

When the NDLR is slaved to the MIDI input clock, it does not respond to the standard Start/Stop commands. In some respects, this makes sense, because there is no way for the one MIDI command to indicate which (or all) of the parts to start. However, what does not happen that really should is the Chord Sequencer doesn't start or stop. If it did, it would allow the NDLR to be ready to switch in and out the various parts.  In this case, it would make most sense to me for the part controls (Pad, Drone, Motifs, and All) to operate as mutes, rather than start/stops.

In a related way, when the NDLR is the master MIDI clock, the MIDI start/stop are sent correctly when using the All Parts button. When using a single part control, however, it doesn't sync correctly with external gear. For example, I have my drum machine slaved to the NDLR, and I press the All Parts button to start, everything is synced properly, so I can use this to record MIDI to my DAW for later manipulation. For live use, however, I would likely want to start just one part, and when I start using on of the individual part controls, the sync is off by one beat (I can't remember whether it's ahead or behind off the top of my head).

Similarly, when I switch out a part while playing a Chord Sequence, and then switch it back in, it loses sync with the other parts. Is this because I have a setting wrong somewhere? The behavior I desire is, again, for the part controls to behave as mutes rather than actual pauses so that they maintain synchronicity.

Is there a formal issue tracker somewhere that I can search for other reports? I honestly can't tell whether any of the issues I'm experiencing have already been reported.

[House de Kris]

"I honestly can't tell whether any of the issues I'm experiencing have already been reported."

Some of your issues may be new, some are not. I'll offer a little help here, but keep in mind I don't work for Conductive Labs so I do not speak for them. Just a happy customer.

"When the NDLR is slaved to the MIDI input clock, it does not respond to the standard Start/Stop commands. In some respects, this makes sense, because there is no way for the one MIDI command to indicate which (or all) of the parts to start."

Hmmm, in my experience it does respond to Start/Stop when an external clock is used. BUT, you must set up the conditions for it to work first. If you want all parts to start when the external Start command is issued, push the Play All button on the NDLR before starting the external sequencer. Likewise you can press individual Part Play button and/or buttons prior to starting externally. Check the status indicators in the display for filled blue dots by the parts you want to start with the external Start command.

"However, what does not happen that really should is the Chord Sequencer doesn't start or stop. If it did, it would allow the NDLR to be ready to switch in and out the various parts. In this case, it would make most sense to me for the part controls (Pad, Drone, Motifs, and All) to operate as mutes, rather than start/stops."

Sorry, but I don't use the chord sequencer much. But, I assume it may be the same issue as I just described, arm the parts you want to start before you issue the external Start command.

"In a related way, when the NDLR is the master MIDI clock, the MIDI start/stop are sent correctly when using the All Parts button. When using a single part control, however, it doesn't sync correctly with external gear. For example, I have my drum machine slaved to the NDLR, and I press the All Parts button to start, everything is synced properly, so I can use this to record MIDI to my DAW for later manipulation. For live use, however, I would likely want to start just one part, and when I start using on of the individual part controls, the sync is off by one beat (I can't remember whether it's ahead or behind off the top of my head)."

I don't think I've ever encountered this condition before. Thus, I got nothing to offer you here.

"Similarly, when I switch out a part while playing a Chord Sequence, and then switch it back in, it loses sync with the other parts. Is this because I have a setting wrong somewhere? The behavior I desire is, again, for the part controls to behave as mutes rather than actual pauses so that they maintain synchronicity."

This is a pretty common issue, and not just with the chord sequencer, but rather in all use cases of the NDLR. Internally, the Start/Stop buttons are really Continue/Pause buttons. Hence, it you start out with Start All and then desire to mute Motif 2, only to bring it back later, it will invariably be 'out of sync' when you bring it back in. Once paused, it is virtually impossible to unpause (continue) a Motif to be playing with the same time relationships it had before pausing. Motif parts are not quantized making it more than difficult for a human to pull off perfectly.

The solution supplied by CL personnel multiple times in the past is to utilize external methods of muting the instruments being played by the NDLR. For example, use your hand to manually adjust the synth's output level, or the mixer's input level, or you can use the nifty MIDI Controller feature of the NDLR (Shift+Menu Enc4) Volume Controller page.

Hope this helps!

HdK

[Jesse Johannesen]

Well put Kris,
I had written out a response to this earlier this week and must not have hit send as I was surprised to see it is not here.
I'll try to touch on some of these issues as well though they may have been covered by Kris above.

"I have encountered some issues which make the NDLR suboptimal for live use."
There are more than a few things that make NDLR a...lets say challenging choice for a live performance. This is partly because that wasn't really what it's designed to do. Not to say it can't be used for live performance, but the NDLR is mainly designed for jamming out with a bunch of synths while unwinding after work. It's a lot of fun but it can be frustrating when you try to get it to do something like play the exact same thing 2 times in a row.

"When the NDLR is slaved to the MIDI input clock, it does not respond to the standard Start/Stop commands."
So when externally clocked the NDLR doesn't do anything until it gets the next clock tick. This can mean notes won't turn off, or some other weirdness, but as Kris mentioned this is the trick to starting things with an external clock. You can press start on the NDLR while the clock is off on any part you want and it will do nothing until you hit start on the Master device, at which point it comes to life, hopefully the way you had in mind!

"what does not happen that really should is the Chord Sequencer doesn't start or stop."
At this point the Chord Sequencer doesn't have a reset functionality aside from going to the menu and disabling/enabling it. I would love to see that change and it is in the feature requests.

"If it did, it would allow the NDLR to be ready to switch in and out the various parts. In this case, it would make most sense to me for the part controls (Pad, Drone, Motifs, and All) to operate as mutes, rather than start/stops."
Like Kris mentioned the easiest way to get this kind of functionality is by muting the audio rather than the MIDI.

"In a related way, when the NDLR is the master MIDI clock, the MIDI start/stop are sent correctly when using the All Parts button. When using a single part control, however, it doesn't sync correctly with external gear. For example, I have my drum machine slaved to the NDLR, and I press the All Parts button to start, everything is synced properly, so I can use this to record MIDI to my DAW for later manipulation. For live use, however, I would likely want to start just one part, and when I start using on of the individual part controls, the sync is off by one beat (I can't remember whether it's ahead or behind off the top of my head)."
I also haven't run into this. I will see if I can reproduce this on my end and let you know.

Similarly, when I switch out a part while playing a Chord Sequence, and then switch it back in, it loses sync with the other parts. Is this because I have a setting wrong somewhere? The behavior I desire is, again, for the part controls to behave as mutes rather than actual pauses so that they maintain synchronicity.
Again, this is not something I've run into, but it can be avoided by using the Audio Mute solution.

"Is there a formal issue tracker somewhere that I can search for other reports? I honestly can't tell whether any of the issues I'm experiencing have already been reported."
Yes there is but not a public one. I just log the issues reported here in the forums as well as those received via email to Support@conductivelabs.com.

I'll try to see if I can get some of the issues you mention reproduced and report back.
Jesse

[Alan]

Yes, I can use external mutes to accomplish this. But that leaves me with another big unanswered question: Why are there separate enables for the four parts at all, then? Specifically, if the enable/disable functions aren't usable, why do they exist?

[Jesse Johannesen]

Well for me they generally tend to do what I want in most situations, and with the way I tend to use the NDLR they provide a quick way to bring something in or out, but I'm not usually trying to create a repeatable "live performance" type of thing, but rather exploring the generative aether.

If I wanted the output to be as predictable as possible, consistently, especially working with an external master clock, I would try to approach it like this, with ways that prevent my interacting with the NDLR from creating lots of extra variables to add into the equation. So things like using an external sequencer to send CC notes to change chords and keys (though this comes with it's own challenges), Using the Mod Matrix with Motif Patterns as LFO sources to get changes to happen at set intervals, or using audio mutes to bring parts in and out rather than the individual play pause buttons.

By the way, I'm writing this before I've had my first cup of coffee so forgive me if I sound like a crazy person.

Jesse