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+--- Thread: Don't Disarm Parts on MIDI Stop when Externally Sequenced (/showthread.php?tid=82)
Don't Disarm Parts on MIDI Stop when Externally Sequenced - drGrov - 02-03-2019
Hi,
Currently, when driving the NDLR from an external sequencer, the NDLR disarms all the parts when it handles a MIDI stop message. I'm finding it a bit frustrating as I have to remember to re-arm the particular parts when re-starting the sequencer. Could we have the option so the NDLR doesn't do this? It should still do everything else it does on a stop message (e.g. release any held notes on all parts), just leave the arm state of each part alone.
Cheers,
Ian
RE: Don't Disarm Parts on MIDI Stop when Externally Sequenced - Ms. Donna - 02-03-2019
(02-03-2019, 04:53 AM)drGrov Wrote: Hi,
Currently, when driving the NDLR from an external sequencer, the NDLR disarms all the parts when it handles a MIDI stop message. I'm finding it a bit frustrating as I have to remember to re-arm the particular parts when re-starting the sequencer. Could we have the option so the NDLR doesn't do this? It should still do everything else it does on a stop message (e.g. release any held notes on all parts), just leave the arm state of each part alone.
Cheers,
Ian
Seconding this!
Perhaps a 'double click' for a 'sticky arm' per part?
RE: Don't Disarm Parts on MIDI Stop when Externally Sequenced - Darryl - 02-15-2019
We optimized arming to work with Arturia KeyStep or Beatstep Pro, as they have a Play/Pause button, and a Stop button.
There is no "Pause" in MIDI, its got Play, Stop, Continue, but as the receiving device, you don't know if Stop means Stop as it can be followed by Continue. The NDLR has to keep track of the parts that were playing and where they were stopped just in case it receives a Continue message following a Stop.
Assuming you are connecting your controller as the clock source to NDLR input MIDI B or USB MIDI 1, you can Arm a part, send Play, the parts play until you send Stop.
It looks like the parts are stopped (blue dots are gone), but if you send "Continue" they will play right where they left off!
If you can get your controller to send a Continue message, the parts will "un-pause" themselves.
Or, you can input to MIDI A, or USB 2, 3 or 4 and NDLR will ignore Stop, Start and Continue. Stopping and starting the clock will control when The NDLR plays, and parts will not disarm because they won't get a Stop message.
RE: Don't Disarm Parts on MIDI Stop when Externally Sequenced - Steve - 02-16-2019
Hi Guys,
Looking for more info...
As Darryl said we optimised for Key and Beat steps... 1) a pause or stop on Key or Beat will stop the MIDI clock messages, so The NDLR will have no “heartbeat” and will do nothing until a clock message is received. 2a) If stop was used then play pressed the parts will disarm. 2b) If pause is pressed then play pressed the parts will start again. This is because #2b generates a MIDI continue message, #2a generates a MIDI play message.
drGrov,
When you are “re-starting the sequencer.” Do you know if it’s a MIDI “start” or “continue” message that is sent? Also do you know if the clock messages are stopped when you stop your sequencer?
Thanks for spending the time digging in! Your feedback and tenacity really helps us make a better product for everyone!
Steve
RE: Don't Disarm Parts on MIDI Stop when Externally Sequenced - drGrov - 02-19-2019
The way I've got things set up is that everything is being sequenced by my Synthstrom Deluge. It only sends MIDI start / stop messages and a MIDI clock, which is only transmitted while the sequencer is running (i.e. between the start and stop messages). The NDLR is set up to receive external clock and is connected via MIDI IN B so it handles start / stop messages.
In this particular workflow I'm trying to treat the NDLR as just another MIDI instrument. The Deluge is sending simple chord change note messages to the NDLR which are sequenced along with melody / drums / etc on other instruments. So, as an instrument I'd like the NDLR to:
- Start / stop with the sequencer. No problems here.
- Be in sync with the sequencer (so beat 1 on the NDLR is the same as beat 1 on the sequencer). Again this seems to work using the MIDI start / stop message, even if I arm / disarm the individual parts while the sequence is running. The only issue I've found is that when I use the "All" parts button to start playback while the sequencer is running the NDLR seems to reset it's idea of where beat 1 is, relative to the clock.
- Be repeatable. By this I mean when I stop the sequence, I'd like the NDLR to be left in state so that it'll start generating notes again when the sequence is restarted. This isn't the case as the MIDI stop message disarms all parts. hence the feature request.
I realise that I might not be using the NDLR in a way that it was designed for so thanks for indulging me. It's certainly the most fun MIDI device I've acquired in quite a while...
RE: Don't Disarm Parts on MIDI Stop when Externally Sequenced - Steve - 02-20-2019
drGrov,
Thanks for the concise rundown of your workflow. It really helps me understand what your goals are. Thanks for your kind words, Darryl and I are working a lot of long hours and not getting paid yet, so these nice comments are the currency we are excepting in liu of real money. :-) It really does mean a lot to us that the “life work” we believe we should be doing is matching our customers needs.
We are happy to indulge all requests, but we do need to make sure that generically the solution fits everybody.
One of the philosophical questions we have is: what The NDLR should do when it gets a Midi start message. There really is no method of “arming” the play buttons. This is only an artifact of the clock signal starting and stopping. Meaning if there’s no clock tick and you push play the NDLR is frozen in time, it “thinks” it’s actually playing but there’s no clock ticks to advance the sequencer counters. We thought it could be a bit obnoxious if The NDLR started playing all four parts if it got a start message, especially if it wasn’t meant to.
I just had another thought, can your sequencer trigger the “Play” CC message(s) for the various parts that you’re looking to start? This would automatically “arm” the parts you would like to have play when the start message arrives. CC message details are found in the appendix of the manual. And by the way I just edited the start/stop/continue section to better reflect the current way The NDLR works. The new manual version is 1.3, which will be out today or tomorrow.
Play/pause CC numbers (off<=62, on>=63):
CC 85 - Pad
CC 86 - Drone
CC 87 - Motif 1
CC 88 - Motif 2
Steve
RE: Don't Disarm Parts on MIDI Stop when Externally Sequenced - MKS30 - 02-22-2019
(02-20-2019, 09:28 AM)Steve Wrote: Darryl and I are working a lot of long hours and not getting paid yet, so these nice comments are the currency we are excepting in liu of real money. :-) It really does mean a lot to us that the “life work” we believe we should be doing is matching our customers needs.
Love the passion and adore the product.
The hardware seems to be rock solid and ergonomic, I wonder if you might repurpose the hardware for other products either by refreshing the board and screen printing or offering overlays and re-purposed firmware.
RE: Don't Disarm Parts on MIDI Stop when Externally Sequenced - drGrov - 03-03-2019
(02-20-2019, 09:28 AM)Steve Wrote: I just had another thought, can your sequencer trigger the “Play” CC message(s) for the various parts that you’re looking to start? This would automatically “arm” the parts you would like to have play when the start message arrives. CC message details are found in the appendix of the manual. And by the way I just edited the start/stop/continue section to better reflect the current way The NDLR works. The new manual version is 1.3, which will be out today or tomorrow.
Play/pause CC numbers (off<=62, on>=63):
CC 85 - Pad
CC 86 - Drone
CC 87 - Motif 1
CC 88 - Motif 2
Steve
Unfortunately, it's not easy to use CCs in this way from the Deluge. The workflow is more suited to recording CC changes continually across a sequence (e.g. filter sweep) rather than editing distinct values at set points. While it is possible, it's a lot of work to end up with a sequence on the Deluge to arm the parts in this way (e.g. adding a new note to a sequence to change chord will reset the CC values at that point needing them to be edited again).
This got me thinking. Would it be possible to use a block of notes on the NDLR's MIDI control channel to do the same thing? Could we use, for example, one of the lower octaves to have a set of notes that arm / disarm the various parts (or all of them). Or some of the unused black notes? I was thinking that separate note on messages to arm and disarm (e.g. C0 to arm pad, C#0 to disarm pad, D0 / D#0 to arm / disarm drone etc).
While I'm thinking about this, how about another block of MIDI notes to set the key? A low octave block of keys could be used in the same way e.g. sending note D-1 to change the NDLR's key to D.
Just some idle thoughts on a wet Sunday afternoon...