Need help with simple sequencer setup (model:cycles)

Need help with simple sequencer setup (model:cycles) - Printable Version

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Need help with simple sequencer setup (model:cycles) - Seteef - 02-01-2021

Even though I just figured out how to use the chord sequencer (fun!), I'm still interested in the idea of triggering the NDLR with a track from my Model:Cycles so I can compose a song there, with included chord changes, and just mute and unmute tracks on the NDLR as I see fit.

Trying to wrap my head around keyboard (or sequencer) control on the NDLR. So far, the NDLR is not recognizing the notes from the M:C...

Here is my setup:

NDLR:
MIDI Din A out: out to a bunch of synths (INCLUDING the M:C)
MIDI Din B out: out to an Argon8
MIDI Din A in: Keystep in to all synths for live playing
MIDI Din B in: Model:Cycles in to send on/off to trigger all active tracks on MIDI channel 5 (sending one note to the NDLR, like C or D, on the steps where I want it to change in the pattern)

NDLR control set to 5 All, to match incoming midi channel from M:C on midi channel 5
Keyboard control set to MODE 1

Clock going out of NDLR to M:C and (supposedly back into the NDLR at the same tempo, yes?)
Maybe I have to have M:C as master clock for this scenario to work?

The note from the M:C does not start/stop the ndlr, nor does it change the chord being played by the NDLR or any corresponding motifs/drones.

What am I doing wrong? I know others have successfully set this up with a sequencer, but I can't figure it out.

Thanks!
Steve

RE: Need help with simple sequencer setup (model:cycles) - House de Kris - 02-02-2021

I will try to stimulate your setup this evening in the studio. Until then, two thoughts come to mind:

1. Probably makes most sense to have your M:C be the master, and source of clocks.

2. Take this in baby steps. Forget using the M:C just for a moment. Are you able to change chord degree with using the Keystep only? This needs to work for you before you get more fancy.

RE: Need help with simple sequencer setup (model:cycles) - Seteef - 02-02-2021

(02-02-2021, 02:04 PM)House de Kris Wrote: I will try to stimulate your setup this evening in the studio. Until then, two thoughts come to mind:

1. Probably makes most sense to have your M:C be the master, and source of clocks.

2. Take this in baby steps. Forget using the M:C just for a moment. Are you able to change chord degree with using the Keystep only? This needs to work for you before you get more fancy.

Thanks for your reply, House de Kris!

Your "baby steps" concept, made me have an Ellen Griswald moment (if you've seen Christmas Vacation 8000 times, you know what I mean).

I remembered the step I ALWAYS forget when using my M:C as a sequencer, and that is turning on Mout in the track setup.
That solved my problem.

AND it works fine with NDLR as master clock, which I want to keep, so I can more easily use the clock out from the NDLR for other stuff.

Also, the keystep works perfectly....
So, problem solved.

Would still love to hear if you uncover anything else when you try this though.

Thanks!

RE: Need help with simple sequencer setup (model:cycles) - House de Kris - 02-02-2021

Cool! Glad I could help out a bit.

I tried some stuff out here. I don't have a Model:Cycles, so I just used an ordinary sequencer instead, therefore what I say may not apply to your use case.

With the clock coming from the NDLR and going to the sequencer, this implies the NDLR is set to Internal clock, and the sequencer must be set to Slave mode. As such, in my setup, the Start command MUST come from the NDLR. Pushing the Start button on the sequencer does nothing, as it's in Slave mode and must listen to instructions coming over MIDI to it. So if you're good with that constraint, then no problem! I didn't take it farther by having the sequencer Pause/Continue parts as you appear to be doing.

Also, you mentioned, "Clock going out of NDLR to M:C and (supposedly back into the NDLR at the same tempo, yes?)" If the clock goes back to the NDLR, it is of no consequence. The NDLR is in Internal clock mode, therefore it ignores whatever clocks are sent to it via MIDI. But, yes, it should be coming back to the NDLR at the same tempo, nonetheless.

At any rate, it's really great what you want to do is now working. Give a shout out if you get stuck again, someone will help.

RE: Need help with simple sequencer setup (model:cycles) - Seteef - 02-02-2021

(02-02-2021, 08:27 PM)House de Kris Wrote: Cool! Glad I could help out a bit.

I tried some stuff out here. I don't have a Model:Cycles, so I just used an ordinary sequencer instead, therefore what I say may not apply to your use case.

With the clock coming from the NDLR and going to the sequencer, this implies the NDLR is set to Internal clock, and the sequencer must be set to Slave mode. As such, in my setup, the Start command MUST come from the NDLR. Pushing the Start button on the sequencer does nothing, as it's in Slave mode and must listen to instructions coming over MIDI to it. So if you're good with that constraint, then no problem! I didn't take it farther by having the sequencer Pause/Continue parts as you appear to be doing.

Also, you mentioned, "Clock going out of NDLR to M:C and (supposedly back into the NDLR at the same tempo, yes?)" If the clock goes back to the NDLR, it is of no consequence. The NDLR is in Internal clock mode, therefore it ignores whatever clocks are sent to it via MIDI. But, yes, it should be coming back to the NDLR at the same tempo, nonetheless.

At any rate, it's really great what you want to do is now working. Give a shout out if you get stuck again, someone will help.

Thanks for checking it out. Sooo... actually there is an issue, which is that, either way I set it, with M:C as master clock or NDLR, there is a delay. When I have Pad quantize set to 1/4 or 1/8 its basically a beat or an 1/8 behind. If I have it set to none, then it is just a touch late. Still, the motifs stay off by one beat. Everything changes exactly when the M:C hits the 1/8 or 1/4. Very strange!

If I set it to have my M:C as master clock, it's all wonky. Like if I have it at 100 on the M:C, it'll be 100.8 on the NDLR. I think I read someone else say that M:C's clock acted weird with NDLR.
But I don't understand the whole delay thing. Changing the PPQ or clkout div doesn't change anything.

And actually all I'm trying to do is have one track on the M:C change chords. No pause/continue or anything.

The mystery continues. I have a TR-06 coming next week. Hoping that syncs with less headaches.

RE: Need help with simple sequencer setup (model:cycles) - House de Kris - 02-03-2021

Seteef Wrote:
House de Kris Wrote:Cool! Glad I could help out a bit.

I tried some stuff out here. I don't have a Model:Cycles, so I just used an ordinary sequencer instead, therefore what I say may not apply to your use case.

With the clock coming from the NDLR and going to the sequencer, this implies the NDLR is set to Internal clock, and the sequencer must be set to Slave mode. As such, in my setup, the Start command MUST come from the NDLR. Pushing the Start button on the sequencer does nothing, as it's in Slave mode and must listen to instructions coming over MIDI to it. So if you're good with that constraint, then no problem! I didn't take it farther by having the sequencer Pause/Continue parts as you appear to be doing.

Also, you mentioned, "Clock going out of NDLR to M:C and (supposedly back into the NDLR at the same tempo, yes?)" If the clock goes back to the NDLR, it is of no consequence. The NDLR is in Internal clock mode, therefore it ignores whatever clocks are sent to it via MIDI. But, yes, it should be coming back to the NDLR at the same tempo, nonetheless.

At any rate, it's really great what you want to do is now working. Give a shout out if you get stuck again, someone will help.

Thanks for checking it out. Sooo... actually there is an issue, which is that, either way I set it, with M:C as master clock or NDLR, there is a delay. When I have Pad quantize set to 1/4 or 1/8 its basically a beat or an 1/8 behind. If I have it set to none, then it is just a touch late. Still, the motifs stay off by one beat. Everything changes exactly when the M:C hits the 1/8 or 1/4. Very strange!

If I set it to have my M:C as master clock, it's all wonky. Like if I have it at 100 on the M:C, it'll be 100.8 on the NDLR. I think I read someone else say that M:C's clock acted weird with NDLR.
But I don't understand the whole delay thing. Changing the PPQ or clkout div doesn't change anything.

And actually all I'm trying to do is have one track on the M:C change chords. No pause/continue or anything.

The mystery continues. I have a TR-06 coming next week. Hoping that syncs with less headaches.

OK, looks like two issues here, clock speeds and quantization.

1-clock speed. Although it may appear they are going at different speeds, the machines are indeed working in lockstep. Has to, as MIDI forces them to. It all comes down to how things are measured and displayed. Let's say you've got two 2-1/2 digit display DVMs. You plug probes from both of them into the same wall outlet. They may both report 120V. All cool. But, one might say 120V while the other displays 122V. Which is correct, what's the actual voltage? They can't both be right. Next, use two 3-1/2 digit meters. One says 120.1V and the other claims 120.4V. In fact, the more digits of precision displayed, the less likely you'll get two meters to agree. For example, use two 6-1/2 digit meters, and no measurement will agree. Same here with one machined slaved to the other. They are in synch with each other, it's just that the way they measure the BPM and display it doesn't agree.

Actually, my tablet is having huge lags right now in displaying what I type, so I have to reboot before I continue.

HdK

I'm back, but unfortunately I must go to work now. I'll share my thoughts on quantization with you later, unless someone else steps in first.

HdK

RE: Need help with simple sequencer setup (model:cycles) - House de Kris - 02-03-2021

2- quantization. Your description of quantization being a delay is pretty accurate. It converts continuous time events to discrete time events. So, actions are delayed in sounding until the next discrete time interval occurs. For example, you can press and note on your KeyStep mid-beat and it won't change the selected chord degree until it makes sense to on the quantization interval. Allows for people without impeccable timing chops to make decent music.

When I use an external sequencer to sequence chord changes, I place the chord change note on the 16th note before the measure I want it to sound on. Makes everything change simultaneously, like Pads, Drone, and Motifs, all together. Also, keep in mind that the Chord Type must be latched in before Chord Degree, if you want to change the Type. I program my sequencer with a Chord Type note a 16th note before the Chord Degree note (which comes a 16th note before the next measure).

Hope this makes sense. If not, just ask.

HdK

RE: Need help with simple sequencer setup (model:cycles) - Seteef - 02-04-2021

(02-03-2021, 08:55 PM)House de Kris Wrote: 2- quantization. Your description of quantization being a delay is pretty accurate. It converts continuous time events to discrete time events. So, actions are delayed in sounding until the next discrete time interval occurs. For example, you can press and note on your KeyStep mid-beat and it won't change the selected chord degree until it makes sense to on the quantization interval. Allows for people without impeccable timing chops to make decent music.

When I use an external sequencer to sequence chord changes, I place the chord change note on the 16th note before the measure I want it to sound on. Makes everything change simultaneously, like Pads, Drone, and Motifs, all together. Also, keep in mind that the Chord Type must be latched in before Chord Degree, if you want to change the Type. I program my sequencer with a Chord Type note a 16th note before the Chord Degree note (which comes a 16th note before the next measure).

Hope this makes sense. If not, just ask.

HdK

Once again, thank you very much. That was going to be my next experiment, placing the chord changes on the step right before the one I want it to play, but it seemed strange. Now I see that that is just how it works. But I hadn't thought of putting the chord type one step before that one too. Awesome!

I understand how the quantization works ON the NDLR but hadn't thought of that extra step to make it work via sequencer. And now that I know that the slight variation on the display with midi clock coming from the M:C is perfectly normal, I feel more comfortable making that the master clock.

One quick question though. How does the PPQ and beat division play into all this? Does that only come into play if I'm using the clock out/in? I got my PO synced to the clock out by adjusting the PPQ, but couldn't tell if there were midi applications where that would come into play.

Thanks for helping a newbie understand all this stuff.

RE: Need help with simple sequencer setup (model:cycles) - House de Kris - 02-04-2021

Seteef Wrote:One quick question though. How does the PPQ and beat division play into all this? Does that only come into play if I'm using the clock out/in? I got my PO synced to the clock out by adjusting the PPQ, but couldn't tell if there were midi applications where that would come into play.

Thanks for helping a newbie understand all this stuff.

The PPQ setting and Beat Division affect the CV Clock Out on the 1/8 inch jack. Clocks over 5-pin MIDI are 24PPQ.

HdK